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Salan View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2008 at 8:53am

Hi

 
The original comment to which I responded was: "these version of cards, like SLI and Crossfire only get the increased performance at high specs in games, ie, high resolution and high quality settings".  That hurt.
 
Then came: "The conclusions is that you'd probably gain 20% on average starting at 1600x1050.  Anything lower and the performance gain is hardly worth it."  Oh the pain.
 
Now that those attacks from the sli/crossfire deformation club have been well repelled we have: "Going from 50~100fps to 80~160fps is completely insignificant if that's your gaming resolution/settings in the games you're playing; and means you've completely gotten zero impact from the purchase of multi-GPU gaming video card(s)."
 
Another broadside into the peaceful and good land of sli/crossfire.  Will it never end?  Why can't those with pussy single cards learn to live in peace with the rest of us more fortunate sli/crossfire people?  Having been proven so wrong in their basic premise that sli/crossfire provides no gains, why have they moved the goal posts by changing the issue by saying,  'Bah humbug you can't see the difference anyway"?
 
I say to them yet again that the benchmarks are flawed and do not tell the whole story.  No game runs at a fixed number of frames per second as noted in the benchmarks.  There are maximums and minimums and everything in between.  Indeed some benchmarks do list maximums, minimums, and averages. 
 
In Crysis (Ugh) Nomad can walk down the street and splatter blood everywhere at 75 fps.  He turns a corner and is at 20, looks back at 56, and then blows off someones arm at 33.  He pauses to admire and count body parts at 65 and then scratches under his armor (the nano suit generates a lot of sweat in strength mode) at 25 fps.  He then walks away at 69fps with a determined smile that signifies he is both pleased with the body count and is looking forward to his next challenge.
 
Ever watch 3dmark06 run?  In the first segment the troop transport zooms to the attack and we see the tense troopers sitting ready to go at 85fps.  They exit at 33fps and are eventually pinned down at 56fps.  And so on throughout the test.  The firefly's dance their dance at different fps marks at different times.  And so on to your disappointing final score.
 
The point being that all games have variable frame rates throughout the play.  SLI/Crossfire gives a much better lower frame rate count and much smoother transitions through the game.  Now the detractors will say, "What difference does it make if your frame rates drop from 250 to 196 at some point in a game?"  But they ignore those games where the frame rates are not that high (see Nomad scratching under armor above).  Plus, I may be kidding myself but my experience is that the higher the frame rate the smoother the game, even if I am not supposed to be able to see the difference.  I may be crazy, but I do feel a difference.
 
So to those with one card syndrome I say, be happy with what you have and console yourself with the thought that it is not the number of cards you have but how you use them.
 
Alan
 
 
 


 
 


Edited by Salan - 09 Dec 2008 at 9:43am
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MalVeauX View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2008 at 10:13am
Heya,

Defending SLI/CF is not necessary. What you personally feel is different from what is physically represented by these cards for their cost. Very few games play at low FPS where you actually would benefit a high end multi-GPU setup. Crysis keeps coming up, because it's a horridly coded, but graphically intense game that stresses every single system out there to barely keep around that 30fps mark at highest setings with the absolute most advanted GPU tech available in multi-GPU setups.

Take popular games which are actually being played, not just benchmarked, because what's the point of spending a bunch of money just to benchmark a computer and have some score at the end. You're not competing with anyone. There's no prize. There's no winner. If it helps you sleep at night to get a higher number in 3DMark, fantastic, but the people who buy these things to actually play their games are too busy playing games to care much about that.

If you feel defensive because you shelled out the money for multi-GPU and you want to feel great about that expense, even though you don't actually play a lot of games, and as you benchmarked Crysis, showed us you don't actually have great Crysis performance at your gaming settings, like every computer out there (Crysis just sucks for actually playing); then perhaps consider what you're going on about. Is it true that you feel the difference of 120 fps over 80fps? Or is it just that you want to because you don't want to feel like it's a waste?

If you can afford an SLI/CF/X2 setup, by all means, anyone is appluaded to go for it and have fun if they have a display that is worth of running such a setup. It can make a huge difference in games at high resolution and high settings.

However, since the spawning of SLI, the moment you shell out double the price for two cards to link together (again, since the days of Voodoo, which I was purchasing back then the same way I still dabble in this stuff now), a few weeks later, a better single card solution gets released that is just as fast, requires less external expenses (PSU support, memory additions, etc) and costs less to boot. SLI never caught on other than the enthusiast market. Nothing has changed, and it's still happening the same way again. Only this time, newer more powerful single card sollutions are coming out even faster and the prices drop even faster. For example and argument, why buy the 9800gt in SLI when you can get the GTX260 for cheaper?

-- If you can see the difference between 100 and 160 fps in a game, you should check your refresh rate and synchronization; you're not seeing the FPS difference, you're whitnessing the absence of blur and the black color between a progressive scan. Read up on this kind of information if interested.

And no, the debate will never end. However, you still see me recommending SLI/CF options to people based on their display capabilities. I'm not a single-card single-minded person who demands everyone avoid multi-GPU. Instead, I'm simply suggesting it's smarter and better for your wallet for what you get out of the machine; hence suggestions for things like the GTX260 or HD4870. It will game nearly all your games at nice high resolutions and high graphical settings at fluid frame rates. Will they perform absolute highest standards in the most benchmarked applications? Nope. But for their price, they perform where they need to be for someone with a high end display to take advantage, and their performance goes even higher with the addition of a twin, via SLI/CF later on, as particular games that are actually popular and not just benchmark-tools demand more performance to remain at high end display settings. And this is why benchmarks are pretty useful; to see what does the job and has room to spare, without overspending for useless power that doesn't actually get used. I think it's fair to say that not everyone is still thinking in the old "put a bigger rocket under it, and it goes further" mentality of technology. There is such a thing as efficiency for return, and it's far more important these days and is continuing to become ever more important as you can see in the gaming market's components beling released--note, that markget is not the same as the enthusiast market, the same way the luxury vehicle markget is completely left-field from drag racing and rocket car racing.

I'd like to also note, none of this is a personal attack against you Alan. You seem to take things personally though simply because something doesn't exault your choices on graphical cards. If you want to make penis joke references concerning multiple cards vs singular cards and how you use them; well, let's go ahead and be like that, and I'll simply ask... does your awesome dated multi-GPU setup game at high res on a nice big display, or are you still staring at the old tiny monitor? I play all my games at 1920x1080 with highest quality settings on my 1080p 37" in my office, and sometimes on my 42" 1080p Plasma when I want to be in the living room. I can't play every game at max settings and AA enabled, but the ones I most frequently play, I can. The ones that actually require more power to get max settings and AA enabled at that res are not games I play--games like Crysis (even though I've played through both Crysis games, at 1680x1050 High Quality settings, perfectly fine, the game is not good and I don't play it multiplayer). I'd rather spend the money on a nicer display, than useless extra frame rates. I can actually see the difference and enjoy my gaming machine's output on such a display, compared to having unseen frame rates on a tiny display, where you have to squint to read text at high resolution on that tiny little thing. I guess that makes it personal. But I would like to point out, I say so with absolute respect to you as a person. But I question your technical `proof' comments since they don't actually have any real merit for an argument since you can't prove anything behind "how you feel" at certain FPS, which you cannot see.

Very best, Embarrassed


Edited by MalVeauX - 09 Dec 2008 at 11:26am
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Salan View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2008 at 10:39am
Hi Mal
 
Quick break will write more later.
 
But just want to say no offence was taken or meant to be given.  I was just trying to address the question with humor in a light way. 
 
Last week along with normal crush work, I had to drop everything three times to help people in the pension plans that I administer find a way to use their accounts to avoid foreclosure of their home.  There was also heated exchanges with me in the middle from divorce attorneys.  Tracking clients assets in a dancing (down) stock market is nerve racking. 
 
So the forum is just stess relief and the issue as to whether sli or not sli is fun and not that important in the scheme of things. 
 
Alan
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Salan - 09 Dec 2008 at 10:40am
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MalVeauX View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2008 at 11:27am
Heya,

No worries buddy. Completely understand.

Back to gaming rigs!

Very best,
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masters12 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2008 at 4:49pm

Umm Wow i read all that n just got lost. I do not know what you guys were talking about, but i was a very good arguments I think. Cant wait to  read more

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Salan View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2008 at 6:33pm
Hi Mal
 
Having read your response, I decided not to really write any more.  You have your opinion and I have mine and never the trains shall meet.  We have beat this horse until it is well dead, so I will observe some silence out of respect to departed.
 
Alan
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2008 at 5:41pm
Hi
 
The launch date of the new gtx 295s is January 9.  I recommend against buying one since you can't see the difference anyway.Big%20smile
 
Alan
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MalVeauX View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2008 at 6:55am
Hey guys,

The AMD 9850 Black Edition just got a slash in price over at NewEgg. $155. Yea seriously. I think they did it as the `daily deal' or something. The 9950 actually went up in price to $199, as it's the holidays and people are buying the 125w version it seems pretty quickly as the price reflects demand. But the 9850 it seems is not being gobbled up as fast, and so it's got a $50 slash in price, yet is only 100mhz in difference (same exact chip otherwise). That's pretty cool. That $50 pays for the 3rd party cooler straight up in price comparison. And then you're just a simple multiplier change away from a 3.0+ghz Quadcore for cheap.

Very best,
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Scorpius View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2008 at 5:29pm
So after reading this amazingly helpful post, may I please get an honest opinion on how this build will run most games out there right now, and how long can I expect this machine to last me until an upgrade will be needed. I play WoW, RtS games, and FPS. Thanks for the awesome post, great read! :)


My build:


    * CASE: Sigma Gaming Windstorm Mid-Tower 420W Case (Blue Color with Side-Window)
    * Neon Light Upgrade: NONE
    * Extra Case Fan Upgrade: Default case fans
    * POWER SUPPLY Upgrade: 500 Watts Power Supplies (**Recommended** WIN-500XSPX APEVIA 500W JAVA Power Supply-Black)
    * CPU: AMD Phenom™ X4 9950 Black Edition Quad-Core CPU w/ HyperTransport Technology
    * COOLING FAN : AMD ATHLON64 CERTIFIED CPU FAN & HEATSINK
    * MOTHERBOARD: Biostar TA790GX A2+ AM2+/AM2 AMD 790GX HDMI ATX AMD Motherboard
    * MEMORY: 4GB (2x2GB) PC6400 DDR2/800 Dual Channel Memory (Corsair or Major Brand)
    * FREEBIES: None
    * VIDEO CARD: ATI Radeon HD 4870 PCI-E 16X 512MB DDR5 Video Card (Major Brand Powered by ATI)
    * VIDEO CARD 2: NONE
    * VIDEO CARD 3: NONE
    * LCD Monitor: NONE
    * 2nd Monitor: NONE
    * HARD DRIVE: Extreme Performance (RAID-0) with 2 Identical Hard Drives (500GB (250GBx2) SATA-II 3.0Gb/s 8MB Cache 7200RPM HDD)
    * Data Hard Drive: NONE
    * USB PORTABLE DRIVE: NONE
    * Optical Drive: (Special Price) LG 20X DVD±R/±RW + CD-R/RW DRIVE DUAL LAYER (BLACK COLOR)
    * Optical Drive 2: NONE
    * SOUND: HIGH DEFINITION ON-BOARD 7.1 AUDIO
    * SPEAKERS: 600Watts PMPO Subwoofer Stereo Speakers
    * NETWORK: ONBOARD 10/100 NETWORK CARD
    * MODEM: NONE
    * KEYBOARD: NONE
    * MOUSE: NONE
    * Extra Thermal Display : NONE
    * Wireless 802.11B/G Network Card: NONE
    * Flash Media Reader/Writer: None
    * Cable Wiring: Professional Wiring for All WIRINGs Inside The System Chasis with High Performance Thermal Compound on CPU
    * Rounded Cable: None
    * VIDEO CAMERA: NONE
    * PRINTER: None
    * PRINTER CABLE: None
    * IEEE CARD: NONE
    * USB PORT: Built-in USB 2.0 Ports
    * FLOPPY: NONE
    * OS: Microsoft® Windows Vista™ Home Premium w/ Service Pack 1 (64-bit Edition)
    * FREEBIES: FREE! (Halo 2) Game
    * Media Center Remote Control & TV Tuner: None
    * SERVICE: STANDARD WARRANTY: 3-YEAR LIMITED WARRANTY PLUS LIFE-TIME TECHNICAL SUPPORT
    * RUSH SERVICE: NO; READY TO SHIP IN 5~10 BUSINESS DAYS

Total price: $971.00

Edited by Scorpius - 15 Dec 2008 at 5:50pm
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MalVeauX View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2008 at 9:18pm
Scorpius,

Your system selection is pretty much perfect for the price tag; excellent machine. I'll make one suggestion: up the powersupply (PSU) to the 635w Sigma one (it's pennies more, more PCI connections). I say that because you basically have to. The HD4870 takes two PCIe connections (two 6 pin connectors). The PSU you've got selected there (the APEVIA) only has a single PCIe 6 pin connector. So fix that, and you're set. And it will absolutely rumble in your games at high res and high settings.

Very best,
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